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Topic Title: Microsoft LifeCam Studio Full HD 1080p
Topic Summary: Wirecast 4.1 Fully Supports Microsoft LifeCam Studio Full HD 1080p?
Created On: 8/9/2011 12:49 AM
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 8/9/2011 12:49 AM
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at

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Reading about problems in the past with Microsoft LifeCam Studio Full HD 1080p - USB, and Wirecast, my question is:
Wirecast 4.1 Fully Supports Microsoft LifeCam Studio Full HD 1080p?
So can I buy it and use it as 16:9 ?
 8/9/2011 1:22 AM
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CraigS

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LifeCam Cinema will show as 16:9. LifeCam Studio may not.
Please request support for LifeCam Studio in HD/16:9
http://www.telestream.net/tele...st/contact-support.htm


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CraigS
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 8/9/2011 1:37 PM
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at

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From Telestream Desktop Support:

Looking through our engineering records it seems like the LIfe Cam Cinema has full HD support but the Life Cam Studio is still listed as a feature request.
We do not have official support for cameras as many will work on some systems and not on others. It is impossible to test all of the cameras on the market. Your best source or information regarding cameras and which work well in Wirecst would be the support forum.

So CraigS they say the best source is the support forum
 8/9/2011 2:10 PM
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CraigS

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LifeCam Cinema has been the most reliable for HD support.

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CraigS
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 11/20/2011 10:12 AM
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Robbie

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But CraigS, the Cinema is just 720p. I want to accomplish two things... 1) Be able to record to disk with Wirecast in 1080p for our RSS feeds and YouTube, and 2) Show off to potential Telestream customers that Wirecast is a rockin' broadcaster for 1080p rigs.

Since the Lifecam Studio provides true 1080p video at a VERY cheap price (I got three of them for $147 tax in), it seems like it's a really good way for broadcasters to upgrade... so to see Wirecast support it correctly (it currently only works in 4:3 at 320x240) would be such a great leap toward true HD in an economy rig. Not to mention the portability aspects.

I filled in the mystical "contact support" form too, but since at got the response they did, I thought I'd give my +1 vote.

FYI - you know we got a killer rig now for the Wirecast broadcast (doing it at 720p with a Lifecam Cinema and Canon Vixia), and we're planning full features on how to setup the "dream rig" for webcasters, including a new Interview with Telestream on our new rig (which provides a killer framerate on Skype video). I really want to be able to do it all in 1080p, so we're eager to see support for the Lifecam Studio (as I said, I bought 3). Please make it work

[sorry to rebirth an old thread, but this is still a current issue]

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/20/2011 9:01 PM
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JohnStape

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Wirecast is the only software switcher that does not use the right frame size for webcamss
 11/21/2011 10:43 PM
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CraigS

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We are working on improving HD webcam support. Fill out the form if you haven't already, link to this forum thread, explain in detail how you'd like control of webcam frame size.
http://www.telestream.net/tele...st/contact-support.htm

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CraigS
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 11/22/2011 3:30 PM
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Robbie

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CraigS,
Totally; it was the first thing I did (because I KNEW you'd tell me to!)

This is what support responded with.

------ Case 1-185745
1080p is not currently supported by Wirecast.
The issue of cropping of the image and full 1080p support has been requested with our engineering team. These are being evaluated for inclusion in a future update of Wirecast.
Updates can be checked for manually through File>Preferences>Software Updates. The default setting is that Wirecast will automatically check for updates.
-----

That HAS to be a mistake, no? I mean, my canvas size is set to 1080p... my encoders support 1080p. It's just the *webcam* comes in at 320x240, 4:3.

Of course, I already do what support suggested in that I am always running the most up-to-date version of Wirecast... but is there not a better idea you can give those of us who want to use 1080p?

Again; the camera is a Lifecam Studio. All I care is that it comes in at 1080p 16:9. Everything else is moot.

Thanks man!!

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/23/2011 1:29 PM
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CraigS

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We're working on supporting HD webcam support although as a work in progress I can't give details regarding which webcams (some, all, etc).
The "check for updates" comment is a hint that we can't make promises with dates yet but . . . well . . . keep checking. The coders are very aware of the demand though. Your voice is certainly heard.

BTW what frame rate are you getting with the Lifecam Studio at 1080p vs 720p vs SD sizes in other apps? 30fps, 15fps, less? Can you give examples?


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CraigS
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 11/23/2011 1:40 PM
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Robbie

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Hey CraigS,
Unfortunately, outside Wirecast, I'm unsure how to test the framerate. With my Lifecam Cinema (the 720p version), I get 30FPS (maybe more? I have it hard set to 30) in Wirecast. With the Lifecam Studio, I have no way to know since Wirecast doesn't load it correctly.

Since our broadcast system only has Wirecast on it, I don't have any other software to test with, nor do I want to start installing things which could potentially bog down our broadcast system. I welcome a suggestion if you know of some form of webcam benchmark tool though.

So the question boils down to this, since you have inside information that you are not permitted to share:
Do I wait it out patiently with these 1080p webcams sitting in their boxes? Or do I return them and downgrade to the Cinema to get true 720p now? Obviously, I prefer 1080p. I think you know what I mean here.

Thanks man.

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/23/2011 4:40 PM
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CraigS

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I usually can judge frame rate by eye. I wave my hand quickly in front of the webcam and if I see any blurring it's about 15fps. If the image looks like it's stepping it means it may be down to 10fps.
If you record that kind of fast motion and play back in Quicktime 7, for example, you can jog frame by frame and count. If every other frame is duplicated it's 15fps for example.
In my experience most HD webcams have very low frame rates at 1080. Some are pretty good at 720 though.

Personally I'm going to be testing with an older Logitech Quickcam Vision Pro (modified Logitech 9000) and Logitech C910. Fill out the form and ask specifically if someone is testing with Microsoft Lifecam Studio. That way you'll know if we're testing with the same model (if they'll reveal that). Otherwise you can request that we put it on our direct test list.
http://www.telestream.net/tele...st/contact-support.htm

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CraigS
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 11/24/2011 2:33 PM
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Robbie

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Usually, if a webcam (especially an HD one) is giving bad framerate, it means you have inadequate lighting. Plain and simple. We (Category5 TV) do not have poor lighting. We use two soft boxes, each are 5500K tri-color balanced with 5 cool lamps per box.

If I were to turn them off (or down), yeah; poor framerate is the result. Lighting makes ALL the difference.

CraigS, visually, I can see perfect full-motion video from the Lifecam Studio using the included software's preview in 1080p. No ghosting, and no frame drops that I can tell on the live video from the camera. Of course the Lifecam software can't record to disk at that resolution, so I have no way of checking a frame-by-frame count, but I'd reckon from watching myself wave at the camera in perfect clarity (almost TOO clear; I need coverup now!), it's a perfect 30 fps, which is what the device specs say the camera is capable of.

But of course, all I care is that Wirecast introduces support for these cameras, otherwise I should return them while I still can and buy the Lifecam Cinema. I hate to downgrade to 720p though.

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/25/2011 11:52 AM
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CraigS

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USB bus and the limits of a given webcam design can result in poor frame rates. Some webcams can't go beyond 15fps even in the best professional lighting setups.
See this Lifecam Studio review for example
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369374,00.asp
Video recording maxes out at 720p and 15 frames per second without extra software.

Microsoft claims to have increased the maximum video recording rate compared with the previous LifeCam. The highest resolution setting is still 1280-by-720, but the company said in an interview that the maximum frame rate is now 30 frames per second. Unfortunately, that's still not achievable at HD resolution with the built-in software, which maxes out at 15 frames per second.

Yes it mentions lighting as a factor in frame rate, but there are other factors. Note that the reviews is talking about 720. 1080 is likely to present more encumbrances.

This review implies that using other software can achieve 720 30fps but can't record 1080p video (oddly since Microsoft says it can).
http://techland.time.com/2010/...m-studio-1080p-webcam/
Unfortunately, just like one of Microsoft’s previous HD webcams, the LifeCam Cinema, the included software won’t record in 720p resolution at 30 frames per second—only 15 frames per second.

See this video review showing recording 1080p with VirtualDub. It's clearly not 30fps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc8Punos8kc

I'd love to see a Lifecam Studio recording at 1080 with one's hand moving quickly left to right as well as top to bottom. The best way to judge frame rate is to look at how it handles motion frame by frame to see blurring and/or duplicate frames.

All said, it seems that the best it can do at 30fps is 720. VirtualDub seems to be 1080 25fps. Possibly there's another method to record 1080 though.

I found this tutorial for using it with VirtualDub (conclusion states 30fps only with 720).
http://xtrm.cc/post/2011/04/10...ft-Lifecam-Studio.aspx
and this also mentioning VirtualDub which seems to indicate 20fps at 1080p (at least that's what he left it at).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QakF9eWBh7A

Keep in mind that putting two cameras on the same USB bus may also impact frame rate.

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CraigS
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 11/25/2011 1:52 PM
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Robbie

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Hey Craig,
Thanks man.

Let's nip that one in the bud: It should be made clear to users that the PCMag review (and many others out there which I read or watched when selecting this camera) are incorrectly reporting that the camera promises 1080p but only produced 720p. NO! This is simply that the user MUST use "professional" software! The *included software* is only capable of 720p--it is all very clearly explained even on the product's box. That is not a restriction of the camera, but the capabilities of the included free software. Yes, probably a dumb move on Microsoft's part, but realistically, they're appealing to the wanna-be pro here anyways, not the average Joe user with Skype.

It kinda bugs me seeing reviews like that, or people listing "Only 720p" as a "con". It's entirely untrue. Put some software on that works in 1080p mode, and you're flying.

Yes, USB bus can be a real killer, but again I am using a separate bus for every device (remember, I got that board with 8 PCI-e slots for a reason). Anyone else wishing to go HD with their live capture should already know they need to separate each camera onto a different bus. Gotta expect they did their homework. But NOW, we're getting away from "Wirecast loads this camera incorrectly" talk and getting into "how much ram do you have" and "what kind of motherboard" discussions. Irrelevant, since we must assume the user (who is obviously technically proficient - haha!) already has this addressed; they already know their system is capable of HD 1080p since they can see their 1080p shiny hand waving back at them in their software's preview (can't record, but CAN preview), but Wirecast itself is not working correctly with the camera.

I'll try the VirtualDub software just so I can prove it to you, but the fact remains, Wirecast loads these cameras as 320x240, 4:3. That's the problem. Not my USB bus, nor the camera.

Just hoping to help keep the topic true to the problem as it is, and not stray too far from the real issue.

Thanks again CraigS. I appreciate you taking the time to look around. The VirtualDub test will be a great starting point. Will be interesting to note if the reviewer's framerate issues were due to their gear, which mine may scream past.

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/25/2011 8:53 PM
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CraigS

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I haven't seen anyone list any software that can use the camera at 1080p 30fps. Apparently some have tested (I read many more reviews then the ones I posted as I've been researching this myself for some time) with various programs (various professional NLEs and other programs designed to record cameras) without any luck.

If someone has tested either the Microsoft Lifecam Studio or Logitech C910 with any program and got 1080p30 please do post here.

Telestream is working on HD webcam support but the limitations may be similar to that seen by other programs.

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CraigS
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 11/26/2011 12:56 AM
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Robbie

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Well, alright then CraigS. You asked for it.

First of all, I'll start by saying, I love Wirecast. I am so appreciative of Telestream and yourself, and this awesome community forum.

So, here we stand, we (the community) want support for this awesome 1080p camera that we can get for under $100 (I paid $48), yet you don't believe the camera is truly worth supporting.

So for the sake of Telestream Wirecast (since I believe this support will set them apart, and make some potential webcasters give a second look), and for the sake of my own show (which dreams of being able to broadcast live through Wirecast at 1080p for under $100), and also for the sake of all the others in the Wirecast for Windows community who I know exist from looking through these very forums for answers to this problem, I'll do exactly as I promised to you, and to the community.

I'll install VirtualDub and press record.

Community: Get over to http://www.telestream.net/tele...st/contact-support.htm and direct them to this thread. With respect and kindness, request Telestream work dilligently to bring you full 1080p support for the Microsoft Lifecam Studio webcam, which allows true 1080p video in realtime for very cheap.

What if YOU could increase your show's quality to true 1080p video with a sub-$100 webcam? It sounds too good to be true!

So for you, the Wirecast for Windows community, and for you, CraigS, here is a quick clip recorded via VirtualDub (as you suggested), with the Microsoft Lifecam Studio, which is available for under $100...

Here you go... the Microsoft Lifecam Studio running at 30fps, 1080p:
http://cat5.tv/lifecam

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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Edited: 11/26/2011 at 1:10 AM by Robbie
 11/26/2011 2:35 AM
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CraigS

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Motivated users are the best way to motivate the developers. Someone has to light the fire.

That video easily deserves to get over 50,000 views given what all the other reviews are seem to be saying. When you fill out the support form include the link to the video. The camera does it for sure. I think Microsoft would appreciate your showing the camera's capabilities.

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CraigS
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Edited: 11/26/2011 at 2:43 AM by CraigS
 11/27/2011 1:30 PM
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eagle2

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Thanks for that Robbie!

+1 on the Studio 1080p support, and also sent it in to support.
 11/28/2011 5:27 PM
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Robbie

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Cheers, eagle2.

I too, have filled in the form with a direct link to my blog article where the video is, as well as to this thread.

And to make it "official"...

+1 for Microsoft Lifecam Studio 1080p support!

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/28/2011 10:33 PM
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CraigS

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Now if they can get it to work like that on Mac too . . .

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CraigS
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 11/30/2011 11:09 AM
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Robbie

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CraigS, how is that relevant considering Mac users don't WANT to buy a 1080p camera for just $48? They prefer to spend way more money for the kind of hardware we PC users have... so they will prefer the $20,000 option if they wanna go 1080p.

But then again, these are Mac users we're talking about, so maybe they should try the 320x240 camera first, and in 6 months upgrade to the full VGA model (forward facing!), and then 720p next year, and perhaps in 3 years they'll have worked their way up to 1080p.

Well, all kidding aside then, this is the Wirecast Windows thread; I should report you to the moderators! haha!

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 11/30/2011 11:40 AM
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mavik

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lol. Indeed, ask Microsoft to offer a special MAC deal.

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 11/30/2011 2:33 PM
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zimode

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If history any indication.. it took a long time to even get the MS Lifecam camera supported.. I looking forward to ordering my 'flying car' next week..

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 12/1/2011 12:24 AM
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CraigS

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I run Microsoft Windows 7 on my Mac. Then there's Microsoft Office as well. There's also Microsoft Skype. I can play Microsoft Windows Media Video on my Mac courtesy of . . . Telestream Flip4Mac.
zimode, have you put in your feature request for Telestream Flying Car?

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CraigS
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 1/6/2012 2:55 PM
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Robbie

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I have requested an update from Telestream support, but no word yet.

One of the comments I'm receiving a lot of us that 1080p @ 30fps is "not possible" via USB 2.0, but it's important to note that this fact is only true for *uncompressed* 1080p. The Lifecam Studio, obviously, sends a *compressed* signal to the computer.

Anyone have any updates regarding Lifecam Studio on Wirecast?

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 1/6/2012 4:06 PM
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CraigS

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It would be MJPEG compression ideally since that would make it viable. I can't say anything publicly at the moment but I'd stay hopeful.

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CraigS
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 1/6/2012 4:25 PM
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Robbie

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Thanks CraigS. Yeah; MJPEG is most likely. So my point is just to the doubters out there who are comparing specs to an uncompressed HD camera... it's apples to oranges. The Lifecam Studio is compressed.

I've got the cameras, I've got some really awesome stands for them (boom stands which allow the cameras to be "floating" anywhere we want; they're super light-weight) and ready to go... so you better believe I'm remaining hopeful. And as soon as the update comes in, I'll be doing some crazy awesome "behind the scenes" demos showing the world how to do live broadcasting with HD record-to-disk via Wirecast. Will push pretty hard considering it's my little way of saying "thanks for making this thing even awesomer".

Cheers.

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 1/6/2012 5:03 PM
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CraigS

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I just have to bite my lip because saying things prematurely can be dangerous in this business. I make no promises but elves are working late in the toyshop.

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CraigS
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 1/9/2012 9:27 AM
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Robbie

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CraigS, now you're just teasing. So... feel free to send me a PM

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Robbie Ferguson, Host
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 1/9/2012 3:15 PM
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CraigS

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The walls have ears so my lips are pursed tight and zippered. The elves can hear a whisper but I can see through the keyhole, their work in the toyshop. They do scurry about but I can't say how that's going.

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CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator

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