MOVING TO NEW FORUM link https://telestreamforum.forumbee.com This forum will become READ ONLY on Wednesday May 25, 2016

Telestream Community Forum
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Studio camera query for Category5 TV.
Topic Summary: I need some very specific advice about our purchase decision.
Created On: 7/3/2014 1:45 PM
Status Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 3 Next >> Last unread
Topic Tools Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 7/3/2014 1:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Hi all,
I know this question has turned up 1.2m times in the forum, but I want to be specific...

We need a camera for in studio. We currently have $1,000 toward one, and don't mind saving up more if it is recommended.

Most 'prosumer' cameras I've seen come with a lot of bells and whistles that we as webcasters simply don't need!

To that end, a BlackMagic Pocket Cinema looked good at first in that it doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles. But then I've read that the light balancing and coloration is not very good for live video, so that's not likely what we want... but the idea of a camera that is built for quality HDMI or HDSDI output *without* all the "in the field" features (recording, storage, mic inputs, etc) is appealing.

What we need in a camera:
- HD or UltraHD live video (1080p or 4K capability)
- Reasonable/Good ability to create a depth of field.
- HDMI or HD-SDI clean output
- Lens capable of decent wide shot and slight zoom (for in studio use, close proximity to subjects)
- Good color / exposure controls
- Good (and fast) automatic focus (prefer the viewer to never be conscious of the auto-focus, as is often the case with DSLR)
- Crisp, clear video that will look great on a 50" TV.

What we DON'T need in a camera:
- Internal storage
- Ability to record
- LCD
- Viewfinder
- Absurd amounts of optical or digital zoom
- Rolling shutter (LOL - just putting that out there)

I'm very, very intrigued by the Panasonic Lumix GH4, but by the time you add a lens it seems it may be out of our reach financially... although as I mentioned, I'm not opposed to waiting as we save up. This is a long-term purchase. That said, the GH4 is overkill in many ways. My thinking with the 4K source is simply the BEAUTIFUL ability to perform lossless digital zoom within wirecast of the 4K source to a 720p canvas. Working with a 1080p source is fairly restrictive/limited in that regard.

Or is a Canon VIXIA HF G10 a better place to look? My thinking with that though is that it's getting aged, and no doubt there are better cameras for the price coming out or already out... but perhaps we can get a deal on something like this. What about their newer units like a G20 or G30?

Or is the quality really worth waiting as I save up for the GH4?

Just throwing a couple of my thoughts out there so you know where I'm coming from.

Knowing that we are shooting indoors, under 5500k softboxes with no backlight or high movement (it's a talk show), what would you suggest as a possible "great" camera for us? PS - we will likely be doing some live chromakey as well, so we need crisp, clear video for keying.

Thank you in advance for your feedback!!

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV

Edited: 7/3/2014 at 2:11 PM by Robbie
 7/3/2014 3:36 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

1 Beyond camera designed specifically for streaming. Not for depth of field though.
http://1beyondstore.com/collec...1-beyond-hd-sdi-camera

Their multi camera bundle.
http://1beyondstore.com/collec...i-camera-studio-bundle

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/3/2014 3:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

I think your biggest Achilles Heal will be Depth of Field and Auto Focus (assuming you want tracking focus). I don't think that exists.
Even the Blackmagic Pocket Camera, which I have, can auto focus with Lumix lenses (and now with Canon and EF SpeedBoost) but it's push once type.
If you're using proper lighting, white balance isn't much of an issue. If your lights are 3200k or 5600k you simply set the camera to that.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/3/2014 4:42 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Thanks CraigS! Awesome to see 1 Beyond making a camera that does just what I think a streaming camera should do: be a great camera, without bells and whistles.

My thought for the price is, could it be considered "better than" the Canon Vixia HF G20, which sells for about the same price (it's ~$50 more) but includes camcorder auto-focus (no messing around or needing a 3rd party camera operator to run a webcast) and a much larger lens.

I'd need to feel the 1 Beyond camera would be "better" in more ways than HD-SDI. That's not a real selling point for a webcast... cameras are quite close to the broadcast machine so HDMI is perfectly fine. I can see that being a better option for a church or sports complex though, for sure.

HD-SDI would require purchasing a compatible capture card, so my cost goes up. I have a BMI PCIe already installed.

Love, love, love the concept... just not sold on the quality/features to price ratio. If it was $100 cheaper and used HDMI instead of HD-SDI, it might make more sense to a webcaster in my type of studio environment.

Please either sell me on it or let me know what you think?

Cheers!

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/3/2014 5:03 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Personally I'd find the Vixia more flexible.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 1 Beyond camera had higher resolution sensor. I think their goal was to alleviate the heavy cost for those using Matrox VS4 and Blackmagic Quad cards which are SDI. The cost of the HDMI to SDI adaptors make even the inexpensive consumer cameras cost as much as or more than the 1 Beyond cameras. You may want to contact 1 Beyond about sensor information because that's going to be the qualitative difference, if any, compared to a higher end Vixia.

I'd also find the BMD Pocket Camera more flexible. In many situations I'm not live zooming back and forth. Having control over shallow depth of field is important if you need to soften an ugly background. The white balance presets might be good enough with controlled lighting.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/6/2014 11:25 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Metservices

Posts: 210
Joined: 10/8/2011

Robbie here are my two picks: However as small as that studio is - you better off with what you have been using - unless you have additional space to move everything so you have a control room and separate studio - just sayin!!!

My personal pick is: (for ENG too\& live shots elsewhere)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/...ulder_Mount_AVCHD.html

However if it is going to stay in the studio all the time - I am being told this is the better long term investment:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.co...blackmagicstudiocamera

We may buy one of the BMD at some point - right now we have bigger fish to fry - LOL!!!

Thanks John - WLAS-TV17

-------------------------
Win7 Pro 64 bit
Intel i7 3820K Quad 3.6GHz
32.0 GB DDR3 1600MHZ
Gigabyte GA-X79-UD3 LGA2011 X79 DDR3 Atx
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 SE 1 GB
500GB Ser Ata Sata 7200Rpm
OSPREY 460E
WC Pro 5
DTP: 16 Sources - 1 Key - 2 SD Cam
 7/7/2014 8:02 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
mavik

Posts: 1303
Joined: 2/16/2011

Have you had a look into the security sector. These cams are more or less naked and build for streaming.
AXIS P1428-E
DINION IP ultra 8000 MP

-------------------------
Dell E6530, I7-3720QM, 8GB Ram (Mobile)
I7-4790, ASUS Z87 Quad Deluxe, 16GB (Desktop)
Sintrones VDB-310 (mPCIe)
PE4L + AverMedia 727 (ExpressCard)
FFI VC400DE-SDI 4CH 3G-SDI equivilant to Magewell
Intensity Shuttle (USB3.0)
AverMedia LGP (USB 2.0)
 7/7/2014 2:59 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Wirecast Pro ONVIF supports allows for easier integration with a wide variety of IP (security) cameras.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/7/2014 9:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Metservices

Posts: 210
Joined: 10/8/2011

Folks Robbie already has an awesome studio that blows most away - I think he is looking to get a new cam - but HD - correct Rob???

-------------------------
Win7 Pro 64 bit
Intel i7 3820K Quad 3.6GHz
32.0 GB DDR3 1600MHZ
Gigabyte GA-X79-UD3 LGA2011 X79 DDR3 Atx
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 SE 1 GB
500GB Ser Ata Sata 7200Rpm
OSPREY 460E
WC Pro 5
DTP: 16 Sources - 1 Key - 2 SD Cam
 7/16/2014 9:19 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Metservices -- thanks! I have never looked at the higher-end BMD stuff, and you're right... that looks sweet. While $3,000 looks pricey at first glance, when you factor in the HD-SDI already built in, it's cheaper than the GH4 with the HD-SDI shoe.

Yes, you're right, we're looking at either 4K (that's my preference to give us a massive amount of "play area" with digital zoom), but I would *consider* 1080p if that was a better way to go, or if we can't afford to go 4K.

We have a Teespring campaign going on right now to try to help get us there -- http://teespring.com/category5 in case anyone here loves us and wants a T-Shirt and to help us get a better camera

It is interesting to see that the AXIS P1428-E comes in a 4K model - amazing, and looks great mavik. My concern with a surveillance camera would be the sensor and lens size... I'm not sure if it would pull in as good of quality, and may have a bit more fish eye on wider shots. But it's something I will need to explorer a little closer because I had not seen 4K models...

Thanks for the info re ONVIF CraigS. Is that included in my standard Wirecast Pro license?

Thanks all!

The BMDPC just got dumped down to < $500 at B&H, and tbh, I'm really glad I'm looking at 4K now... I feel like all the 1080p stuff (and the price drop just confirms it) is going by the wayside like SD did back in the day. People jumped at buying an EOL prosumer SD camera only to find 2 years later a $400 consumer cam (HD) would take better video. I don't want that to happen to us, and I feel like that's the threshold we're nearly on.

But to be clear, the appeal of 4K to me is for digital zoom. Imagine all the "virtual camera angles" we can create with that massive source video!

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/17/2014 4:06 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

ONVIF support is built into Webstream Plugin in Wirecast 5 Pro. Many IP cameras support it.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/17/2014 8:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Gonna mention the BlackMagic Studio stuff on Tuesday's show. Metservices I just can't get it out of my head! I'm considering the amazing prospects of that camera (the 4K model) along with a Nikon F to MFT adapter to use my current glass from the D5100 (to get started). The value for the money is unreal! Can't wait to start seeing some footage samples pop up on the Interwebs!

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/17/2014 8:38 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Studio 4K with Active MFT.
http://www.blackmagicdesign.co...era/techspecs/W-CST-02

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/17/2014 8:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Yep, that's exactly what Metservices put me onto above. Compare that to a GH4 + the HD-SDI shoe... the BM Studio 4K is much more bang for the buck. Granted the GH4 looks great, but will end up costing much more in the end (to get it to the same place the Studio 4K is).

Now, if only they offered one without the stupid 10" viewfinder :/ haha! That's a waste of cash to me. If I want a viewfinder, I can buy one and connect it. But alas, the rest of the specs still make it very appealing for the price (again... think of the Panasonic SD-HDI shoe for the GH4)...

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/17/2014 9:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Their 4K Production camera is Canon mount only but there are Nikon to Canon adaptors.
http://www.blackmagicdesign.co...agicproductioncamera4k

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/17/2014 9:07 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

I had checked that one out too, but passed it by since it's the same price point and at a glance, the same specs... but oh my, what's this? Super 35! Okay, maybe this warrants a closer look...

Thanks.

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/17/2014 9:19 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

... I'm confused... the link you posted to the Production camera says it is SMPTE 292M SDI (guessing that means only 1080p live output) but the specs above that do say 1 x 6G-SDI 10-bit 4:2:2 which would be 4K live output.

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/17/2014 9:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Yes, 6G SDI out usually means 4K
http://www.blackmagicdesign.co...etails?releaseID=38169

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/17/2014 9:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Yeah I know... but the specs then go on to say SMPTE 292M SDI which is NOT 4K (only 1.5 Gb/sec).

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/18/2014 11:44 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Metservices

Posts: 210
Joined: 10/8/2011

Robbie thanks - However the BM stuff is going to all in one - which means when I goes up in smoke - you have to get it repaired or toss it - disposable cams at that price is risky - but for LONGTERM investment the BM stuff may be the way to go - however for us have so much SD stuff and invested to bring us up to HD that 4 K is going to have to wait - I understand from InfoComm and even NAB that 8K is just around the corner and we will wait it out - it is only a few years out!!! We can hang that long and then skip 4K all together!!! Yep to go beyond 8K is not something we seem interested to do!! So I think the focus for us will be 8K and may go ahead this next year and get a BM Pro Cam and just $3000.00 is a bit to drop at once!!! LOL :-) BTW Robbie we used your audio principles to lay our audio at WLAS-TV 17. Looks at the big long range - longterm investment and hope you got a bigger studio - LOL!!

-------------------------
Win7 Pro 64 bit
Intel i7 3820K Quad 3.6GHz
32.0 GB DDR3 1600MHZ
Gigabyte GA-X79-UD3 LGA2011 X79 DDR3 Atx
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 SE 1 GB
500GB Ser Ata Sata 7200Rpm
OSPREY 460E
WC Pro 5
DTP: 16 Sources - 1 Key - 2 SD Cam
 7/18/2014 12:42 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Thanks. Yes, check out http://cat5.tv/studio - we are in the process of renovating the studio space now! I hope to be ready in 1 month, although it is all volunteer labour so it depends on people's availability.

Interesting point re the all-in-one nature of the cameras. I can't say I've ever had a camera "fail"... but I guess it could happen, especially if people are rough with it.

I can't imagine 8K at the same price point... man, that'd be amazing. 4K to me though means a lot of video data to work with on a 720p canvas. Think, moving a 720p crop around within a 4K source. Means we can have multiple "camera angles" with only one cam. Brilliant for a small studio.

Glad you were able to use some stuff you learned from Category5 to plan your audio rig! Hope it worked out brilliantly! Out of curiosity, what in particular did you focus on that you gleaned from us?

Cheers!

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/18/2014 5:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Keep in mind that BM stuff is very inexpensive relative to the sensor and recording capabilities. That makes buying backup gear a bit more viable.
I'm hearing lots of people are buying Pocket cameras at $495 to have 2nd cameras. It's important to note that one's lens investment, which can be many times the cost of the camera, is easy to transfer if you're using Nikon or Canon mount lenses. MFT lenses a bit less so IMHO.
One can always buy an Ursa when they actually ship with either Canon or PL Mount.

I think we're still a ways off from 4K live streaming. The advantage of 4K (UHD) as Robbie notes, is the ability to reframe within an HD canvas. Not only does that add motion without actually having to have someone at the camera, it can give the appearance of having more cameras.

I think 8K will be used in sports broadcast for reframing long before anyone actually moves to 8K broadcasting or streaming.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/19/2014 12:35 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Metservices

Posts: 210
Joined: 10/8/2011

Robbie we used the same flowchart - coming out of the mixer - for final audio - we used the The BBE 382i Sonic Maximizer to the Behringer AUTOCOM PRO-XL MDX1600 Compressor - and then run the audio through the WC machine for the audio delay - and out to the cable modulator and of course use the Streaming from WC to Ustream too!! - we will likely back track to use the Behringer FEEDBACK DESTROYER FBQ1000 and Nady Nady GEQ-131 (1U) 1-Channel 31-Band Graphic Equalizer - so we can do further processing and meet the FCC Loudness mandate. We did go with a wireless mic for the Key wall though - so far so good - but may still put in hard wire as a back up - audio is still a work in progress - was area using the Marantz http://images.audioasylum.com/.../10/40980/P1080383.JPG
it is an older mixer seems to work well so far - it will in time be replaced as the number of sources increases! Trying to keep it short an sweet however audio has been a challenge - and watching the video on the studio tour helped to narrow a few of those challenges - so thanks Robbie!!! :-)

BTW: Here is the gig I am working on: http://forum.telestream.net/fo...id=14107&enterthread=y

WLAS-TV 17
https://www.facebook.com/WLASTV17
http://cherokeetel.net/~met71/closed/kgwx_cr.jpg
YOUTUBE - https://www.youtube.com/channe...v_Mrg22SIrMNgsY4EybfvA
USTREAM - http://ustre.am/169ah



-------------------------
Win7 Pro 64 bit
Intel i7 3820K Quad 3.6GHz
32.0 GB DDR3 1600MHZ
Gigabyte GA-X79-UD3 LGA2011 X79 DDR3 Atx
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 SE 1 GB
500GB Ser Ata Sata 7200Rpm
OSPREY 460E
WC Pro 5
DTP: 16 Sources - 1 Key - 2 SD Cam

Edited: 7/19/2014 at 2:33 PM by Metservices
 7/21/2014 5:12 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
michaelgraves

Posts: 149
Joined: 10/22/2013

At some point doesn't a PTZ camera become preferable to digitally processing then output of a 4K camera? I've been playing with the Logitech CC3000e, which is a nice, 1080p capable PTZ camera. The audio aspect isn't that interesting to me, but the camera is handled like any other USB camera. Expect that it has a much better lens than any other webcam, and a real 10x zoom range with 90 degree field of view.

-------------------------
Wirecast v6.0.6
AMD FX-6100 6-core @ 3.3 GHz
10 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 2 TB HD
1 GB AMD Radeon HD 7450
Windows 10 - 64 Bit
AVER Media Game Broadcaster HDMI capture
BMD Intensity Pro PCIe HDMI capture
Logitech C920(2), C930e, BCC950, CC3000e
 7/21/2014 8:29 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

I do think some find the reframing of 4K easier. It depends on the situation.


-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/24/2014 2:52 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

michaelgraves - A PTZ would require an operator to position each shot during the broadcast... control the camera. The idea behind a 4K source with a 720p canvas is you can pre-program many shots in Wirecast. Click the "co-host" shot and it zooms in seamlessly on the co-host for example. No loss to the picture, a smooth zoom transition, and even a lower third graphic for that shot if you want. With PTZ however, you need someone to control the camera. Since you need a camera operator anyways, you might as well go with a camcorder since you'll get a much more fluid transition between shots. PTZ strikes me as something cool for say, a trade show. But it's not a solution I'd want to use for a TV-style broadcast such as Category5.

To be honest, we've also grown to the point where "makeshift" (webcams, ptz, consumer camcorders) is starting to hinder us... so hopefully the funds will be there and we can step into a more studio-like video chain.

Metservices - thanks for the info. Will check you out.

Robbie

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/24/2014 4:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

Good description of where PTZ does/doesn't fit in. It would be very rough if a one person crew had to be both technical director (switcher) and camera operator.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/24/2014 5:02 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Thanks. The other consideration for us Craig is in Chromakey shots. Think of a 4K source and how many "angles" you could setup on a chromakey virtual set. Again, the ability to use lossless digital zoom (720p canvas on 4k source) is ideal for this. PTZ or optical zoom is not as flexible and could actually cause some pretty major problems with getting a realistic shot since the zoom would have to be meticulously timed to the virtual set's movement. Not really possible with a PTZ or optical zoom at all.

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV
 7/24/2014 8:51 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
CraigS

Posts: 54277
Joined: 4/4/2007

With a 4K field one could setup wide, medium, close up shot in 720 frame with no loss. That can't be done easily if one is zooming in and out.

-------------------------
CraigS
Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
 7/24/2014 8:53 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Robbie

Posts: 182
Joined: 11/24/2009

Precisely! I can't WAIT to get a 4K camera so I can teach everyone how it's done with Wirecast! It's gonna blow many minds.

-------------------------
Robbie Ferguson, Host
Category5 Technology TV
http://www.Category5.TV

FuseTalk Basic Edition v4.0 - © 1999-2019 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.

MOVING TO NEW FORUM link https://telestreamforum.forumbee.com This forum will become READ ONLY on Wednesday May 25, 2016